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  • Originally posted by Chex View Post
    Also, I forgot to even go into why I think Cooper acted the way he did in episode 18. In short, in the new timeline, he's in the Black Lodge still for 25 years. The difference is that there is no Bob or Bob isn't interested in making an Evil Cooper because Laura never died and so on. The dopplegangers seem to be a reflection of the darkness inside of everyone. Even Cooper has a dark side. We all do. This was never taken away from him so it remains inside of him for those 25 years. Possibly because he's also trapped in the Black Lodge and these bad / negative emotions resonate more so when in there for a long period of time, he's affected by this. It could also just be that spending 25 years in the Black Lodge is enough. In either case, Cooper is not the same person when he leaves. Because that dark side of him remained, he shows it more and is why there's moments of Evil Cooper and Agent Cooper in him.

    Although as I write this, I just remembered that Cooper and Diane travel through a portal. I suppose they could still have been the original Cooper and Diane we all know of from the original timeline....but then again, it doesn't fully add up if that's true. I dunno. >_<
    You might be on to something in regard to how Cooper (Richard?) behaves in Part 18. On a related note, you should really watch Vertigo again soon. Trust me, you'll see some fascinating parallels to what happened here.

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    • Ha, I already went back to edit in the part of the scream and the voice heard.

      Speaking (sort of) about Judy, would she be considered the dreamer? I mean, her name is another Wizard of Oz reference of sorts. The alternate timeline is a creation of hers. Laura screaming to wake up maybe is what ends the dream? Hell, maybe the next shot would have been Laura waking up in 1989 on the day after her murder. I'm not sure what that would mean for Cooper though. Maybe he can party with Zordon.
      People hyping up Wonder Woman to be the GOAT and I'm like "psshh, you guys must not have seen bigfoot rip off a man's dick before." -Me talking about 1980's Night of the Demon.

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      • Originally posted by sagittarius View Post

        You might be on to something in regard to how Cooper (Richard?) behaves in Part 18. On a related note, you should really watch Vertigo again soon. Trust me, you'll see some fascinating parallels to what happened here.
        I'd love to hear your thoughts. You've been holding back since the start of this topic. TIME TO OPEN THE FLOOD GATES!!
        People hyping up Wonder Woman to be the GOAT and I'm like "psshh, you guys must not have seen bigfoot rip off a man's dick before." -Me talking about 1980's Night of the Demon.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Chex View Post

          I'd love to hear your thoughts. You've been holding back since the start of this topic. TIME TO OPEN THE FLOOD GATES!!
          I might disappoint you in that regard. I've certainly held back spoilers but I haven't held back my opinion. In terms of theories, well, I don't really have any. I don't really have a clue what it all means, but understanding is never the goal for me. It feels correct and it makes a deep emotional connection with me and that's ultimately what I'm looking for. I really hope there's a 4th season. I don't expect there to be one, but I would really like it. Even then, I wouldn't be looking for answers or clarification. I just want more.

          Someone posted the Vertigo comparison pics below on reddit. There's certainly a lot of clear coincidence there (obviously in 18 hours you're going to be able to find matching shots with just about anything) but at the same time I do think there's some merit to it. The tone in the second half of Vertigo, especially the change in behavior Scottie shows as he gets more and more obsessive is remarkably similar to what we see in Cooper in Part 18. I rewatched Vertigo most recently just a week after my last viewing of Twin Peaks and found the similarities between them quite striking.

          https://imgur.com/a/JxBa2

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          • Huh. I guess I can see visual similarities in some of those shots.

            Awww, I thought you were holding back tons of theories and ideas on how it all works together. >_< It's probably for the best not to get sucked into it though. It's doubtful Lynch will ever give an exact answer to anything.

            I passed by one of those electrical towers today and my immediate thought was if it led to an alternate reality.
            People hyping up Wonder Woman to be the GOAT and I'm like "psshh, you guys must not have seen bigfoot rip off a man's dick before." -Me talking about 1980's Night of the Demon.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chex View Post
              Huh. I guess I can see visual similarities in some of those shots.

              Awww, I thought you were holding back tons of theories and ideas on how it all works together. >_< It's probably for the best not to get sucked into it though. It's doubtful Lynch will ever give an exact answer to anything.

              I passed by one of those electrical towers today and my immediate thought was if it led to an alternate reality.
              Yeah, I can't help makes sense of things. If anything I can help make it messier for you... Regarding Laura in the lodge, my impression was never that we see her doppelganger in season 3. I think it's just her. But to confuse things a little more, on the behind the scenes footage when they're shooting in the red room and the call the characters in the scene, she's referred to as...Carrie Page.

              So the "official version" now is that it's all of Fire Walk With Me until it intersects with Part 17, then through the end. For myself, I consider the ultimate end to Twin Peaks to be the closing shot of FWWM. I don't know how you get there from here, but to me that has to be the end. I just have to believe that one way or another Laura will find her angel and be released from all of the pain.

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              • I started in on the +5 hours of behind the scenes filming and haven't reached that point yet. It's interesting. I know the Laura doppleganger from the original series has those grey / white eyes that all dopplegangers seem to have. I don't remember if older Laura we see in the Red Room does though. If not, that may be a clue that it's the real Laura. Referring to her as Carrie Page is strange. That almost implies they go there after the ending shot. I suppose that is possible. Perhaps the last shot seen in front of the Palmer house is not chronologically the final shot in the story.

                I had the same thought about the ending of the story being the end of the film! I only came to that possibility just because it seemed like a more upbeat ending. >_< The last shot in season 3 is a bummer no matter if they defeat Judy as it lacks any information about what happens next. The idea Cooper and Laura return to the spiritual world together is a little more uplifting. The problem is that they're in the Black Lodge. Cooper tells her in episode 17 he's going to take her home. Not so much the Palmer house, but the White Lodge was my thinking. They were in the woods so they could have been heading towards Jack Rabbit's Palace which is the portal to the White Lodge. That doesn't mean their final arrival didn't change after Judy plucks Laura out of the timeline and inserts her into a new one.

                Because I've been thinking of the show all damn day, I had another thought. This would explain the names of Richard, Linda, and Carrie. What if those characters are more dopplegangers / seeds inserted into that new timeline? It could explain why nobody acts normally. Eh, but it loses its impact if it were true.

                I'm with you--I want to find a way that makes the efforts of Cooper and Laura to be worthwhile and have a happy ending if possible. I'm thinking of picking up the Final Dossier. I don't know how much of it I'll take to heart as it's purely Mark Frost and it seems like he and Lynch are not fully on the same page on things. For example, the bug being Judy and possessing Sarah Palmer in 1957 (or was it 56?) doesn't add up. In the film, Leland is seen dosing Sarah. Leland's actions are heavily guided by Bob although Bob doesn't seem to have full control until Leland's hair turns white. Still, why would Bob care to inhibit Sarah? Why doesn't Judy have more control of Sarah like she does in season 3? Why would Bob care to freak her out in the original two seasons? None of that stuff sits right.

                Oh, I did see the behind the scenes material with Sherilyn Fenn. That was way more entertaining than her actual scenes. It's implied in her conversation that the material in the show was not what Lynch originally wrote for her and she thinks the new material is his way of getting back. Although I've stayed away from any outside reading and videos on the new season, I did look this up just to see if there was any more to it--and there is! Audrey's story was that she was placed in a coma after the explosion, she wakes up, gives birth to Richard (probably raped by Evil Cooper I guess), goes to college, earns a degree, opens up a beauty salon (the fuck?), gets tired of life and checks into a rehab facility. I don't blame her for thinking it's crap because it is. What purpose did any of this have? It feels yet again another example of Lynch feeling obligated to include the older cast when he can't find a meaningful way to include them in the story. And that's part of what I dislike about season 3. Say what you want about the first two seasons (especially season 2), but the individual stories factored into the bigger picture in some way. Most of these didn't.
                People hyping up Wonder Woman to be the GOAT and I'm like "psshh, you guys must not have seen bigfoot rip off a man's dick before." -Me talking about 1980's Night of the Demon.

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                • All that Audrey stuff was just introduced with the Final Dossier though. So that's the Mark Frost version of her history but not necessarily related to what she was intended to do in season 3. I can't say I care about Audrey either way though. It's whatever to me. You have to remember, I'm a child of FWWM so the original series just doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Some good moments for sure, but totally uneven and not something I'll ever bother watching again. As to Leland drugging Sarah, well, Bob and Judy aside, the movie makes it crystal clear that he was also a creep who was knowingly abusing his daughter for all those years so he had motivation to keep his wife from catching on. I think that's where a lot of people have problems with the film, because it doesn't let the more fantastic material obscure the really nasty, realistic portrayal of incest at its core. It's ugly in a way that you can't dismiss as simple fiction.

                  Enjoy the bonus material. Really all of that footage is gold. I just wish it didn't have the ridiculously (and intentionally?) pretentious voice overs that do nothing to frame the context of what you're watching. I fast forwarded through stuff that every time.

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                  • I'm so glad I'm not the only viewer wishing the guy would shut up about the "man with the grey elevated hair".

                    Is it known that Frost didn't pull that info from an aborted idea Lynch had for Audrey? The way they banter back and forth, it sounds as if he had a different plan for the character in mind. Not that it really matters in the long run.

                    Oh, for sure Leland had a nasty habit of raping his daughter and that was definitely something the show skirted around in a maybe-maybe not shrug. Not that he didn't, but that he was in control and it wasn't purely a Bob thing. The film plays it up that it's mostly all Leland. That bugs the heck out me though because show-Leland seems genuinely in the dark about the bad things he does. That's part of the problem. Even between the first two season and the film, there's an inconsistency as if Lynch decided to change his mind about things.

                    Anyway, since Bob is a part of Leland and urging him to do bad things to a degree, it still seems silly that Bob would let anything happen to Judy. Look at the woodsmen. Their purpose is to protect and serve Bob. You would think Bob would do the same for mama Judy.

                    All of this is without even tackling Sarah / Judy herself. The mother of all bad entities is cool with letting her host be drugged? By a body inhabited by her son / Bob? Ehhhh...doesn't sit right.

                    Strangely, I could see where Bob and Judy would love to have Laura tormented by using her parents against her. That adds another level of nastiness to the entire situation, but that's about the only thing that fits. Again, it's like Lynch changed his mind about certain things. At least in this case, over two decades had passed by so it's understandable.

                    Lynch is weird to me. I mean, he's weird to most people. For me, it's as if he's carefully thought this stuff out and he's presenting it in an abstract way like he does with his artwork. The meaning is all there, but you have to decipher it by looking at it in a different perspective. Then there are times that I think he creates something only for one end goal in mind never mind how it affects everything else. It's not a carefully constructed idea, it's only partially formed. As if he himself isn't really sure what he's making and has no idea how to start it let alone end it.
                    People hyping up Wonder Woman to be the GOAT and I'm like "psshh, you guys must not have seen bigfoot rip off a man's dick before." -Me talking about 1980's Night of the Demon.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chex View Post
                      Even between the first two season and the film, there's an inconsistency as if Lynch decided to change his mind about things.
                      Ok, say you lent your Chex account here to, say, 10 other people. And you give them general guidelines about how you feel about things and from there they're supposed to post for the next couple of months as Chex. But then after that you come back and take control of the account. There's going to be inconsistencies there right? Those other people were only giving a rough interpretation of what they think you're saying. That's pretty much how I feel about what happened with Twin Peaks.

                      Originally posted by Chex View Post
                      Lynch is weird to me. I mean, he's weird to most people. For me, it's as if he's carefully thought this stuff out and he's presenting it in an abstract way like he does with his artwork. The meaning is all there, but you have to decipher it by looking at it in a different perspective. Then there are times that I think he creates something only for one end goal in mind never mind how it affects everything else. It's not a carefully constructed idea, it's only partially formed. As if he himself isn't really sure what he's making and has no idea how to start it let alone end it.
                      I will say that ending his stories is not Lynch's strong point because he isn't a traditional filmmaker. He's a painter and the movies he makes are just paintings in motion. Fire Walk With Me is the exception because as a prequel it had a hard ending set in stone and all he had to do was work towards it. But otherwise, his best work (Twin Peaks season 3, Lost Highway, etc.) is when he doesn't try to wrap everything up. Look at Blue Velvet. A brilliant film for most of the way, but it completely falls apart at the end when he tries to tie all the threads together. But I think he's a better artist for it. Outside of birth and death, there are never clear cut beginnings and endings in life and very little makes sense. Why should art be any different? This is why I don't put much effort into theories or trying make sense of things. Everything just is. That's enough I think.

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                      • Ok, say you lent your Chex account here to, say, 10 other people. And you give them general guidelines about how you feel about things and from there they're supposed to post for the next couple of months as Chex. But then after that you come back and take control of the account. There's going to be inconsistencies there right? Those other people were only giving a rough interpretation of what they think you're saying. That's pretty much how I feel about what happened with Twin Peaks
                        And that's exactly why I make all my posts unpredictable just to avoid this from happening.

                        Seriously though, that's possible. I think some of the problem is also network restrictions at the time for some of the elements and they had to be dialed back. It's probable that Lynch didn't write the material for the show and then stopped developing them in his head. That's something I've experienced firsthand when writing. I think that's just how he is. In addition to Mark Frost and others having their input and influence as well.

                        I will say that ending his stories is not Lynch's strong point because he isn't a traditional filmmaker. He's a painter and the movies he makes are just paintings in motion. Fire Walk With Me is the exception because as a prequel it had a hard ending set in stone and all he had to do was work towards it. But otherwise, his best work (Twin Peaks season 3, Lost Highway, etc.) is when he doesn't try to wrap everything up. Look at Blue Velvet. A brilliant film for most of the way, but it completely falls apart at the end when he tries to tie all the threads together. But I think he's a better artist for it. Outside of birth and death, there are never clear cut beginnings and endings in life and very little makes sense. Why should art be any different? This is why I don't put much effort into theories or trying make sense of things. Everything just is. That's enough I think.
                        The movie was probably one of his most beautiful endings he's created. I think Blue Velvet had a satisfactory ending from what I can recall although it was a bit...standard? Typical?

                        I understand (and certainly won't try and persuade you) not wanting to rationalize this stuff. As you said, it's like a painting. It follows its own guidelines.

                        For myself, I find it fascinating to dwell on as it's story presented in television format so it must adhere to those guidelines. Call 'em restrictions if you must. Lynch certainly had less of those in this season, but he still had to fit it into the medium despite trying to make it unique while doing so. Because of that, there is a level of rational within it. Or at least, I'd like to believe it. There's a logic to how the scenes are cut, the order they appear in, the fantasy elements within the story, what they mean, how it works even in dream logic. That enhances the experiences for me even if frustration is one of those experiences.

                        It's also just fun to talk about, think on, discuss again with others, then once more think about, and so on. To a point, anyway.

                        ADDED: It's funny that the first two or three episodes felt a bit...shaky, I guess is the term...when first watching it yet now I want to see those three again. I did rewatch the final sequence again and, yep, there's that record playing sound right before asks the question about the year. I think all the other times it's heard, it's in reference to Judy. Make of that what you will. I also heard the voice more clearly this time. Honestly, in a season full of suspenseful and creepy moments, this ranks high up on the list. Sarah / Judy calling out to Laura causing her to scream as the power cuts off and the house goes black will stick in my mind forever alongside the season 2 premiere where Laura screams as she's being murdered.
                        Last edited by Chex; 05-11-2018, 06:15 AM.
                        People hyping up Wonder Woman to be the GOAT and I'm like "psshh, you guys must not have seen bigfoot rip off a man's dick before." -Me talking about 1980's Night of the Demon.

                        Comment


                        • I've been dying to revisit this for the past couple of weeks, but I haven't got to it yet. I've been busy catching up on a pile of Arrow discs and I've also been going through my annual slasher movie phase, so Twin Peaks has had to wait. At this point I think I'll just wait a couple more weeks until I get a new couch put in since I'll have to recalibrate my receiver then and I feel the need to check the audio with the Twin Peaks set whenever I make any sort of change anyway. Two birds with one stone, you know.

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                          • What if you already have the new couch? The couch you see before you is from the future and has became the couch of the past?

                            People hyping up Wonder Woman to be the GOAT and I'm like "psshh, you guys must not have seen bigfoot rip off a man's dick before." -Me talking about 1980's Night of the Demon.

                            Comment


                            • I'll just be glad to have the couch situation over and done with. I have to go with my second choice. My first choice would be awesome but I can't get it because of speaker conflicts. I've spent hours measuring and there's just no way to get it in here without blocking one of the mains. In retrospect, I regret getting floorstanding towers for the fronts. They look cool and all, but I have two subs so they don't really offer any advantages over a pair of bookshelf speakers and the latter's placement would be much more flexible. Oh well. It sucks but I have to kind of plan my life around my sound system. Man, I'm a dork.

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                              • My sound comes from my TV. I know, it's pathetic. I'm just not a audiophile. Shit, I'll probably be wearing Gordon Cole-style hearing aids in the future.

                                I thought about rewatching the movie tonight, but I dunno, it's like my brain needs a break before jumping back in. When you do rewatch the show, if you have any thoughts or ideas that come to mind, post 'em.
                                People hyping up Wonder Woman to be the GOAT and I'm like "psshh, you guys must not have seen bigfoot rip off a man's dick before." -Me talking about 1980's Night of the Demon.

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